tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post5033656253516460869..comments2024-01-07T12:38:39.465-06:00Comments on Clean Cut: Triumphalism is For the BirdsClean Cuthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08383123314458721660noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-16668009066028227642010-07-15T16:01:53.151-05:002010-07-15T16:01:53.151-05:00I got nothing to add...just saying how much I agre...I got nothing to add...just saying how much I agree with this!Lagonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-18808075022143111292010-05-17T10:30:28.424-05:002010-05-17T10:30:28.424-05:00Great Bushman quote.Great Bushman quote.Ericnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-30076239704248226932010-05-12T19:04:36.811-05:002010-05-12T19:04:36.811-05:00I'm reading "The Millenarian World of Ear...I'm reading "The Millenarian World of Early Mormonism" by Grant Underwood right now (he's a professor at BYU-Hawaii) and the chapter I just finished was about the eschatological speeches given by early missionaries. Obviously they are proclaiming things like only Saints are going to heaven and obviously the "gentiles" don't like to hear that. In fact, due to the animosity in Missouri before the expulsion, the missionaries were commanded not to talk about final judgements. <br /><br />Although this quote doesn't directly relate to your blog post, it's still worth nothing here. W.W. Phelps warned the Church elders in 1832, "Warn in compassion without threatening the wicked with judgments which are to be poured out upon the world hereafter. You have no right...to collect the calamities of six thousand years, and paint them upon the curtain of these last days to scare mankind to repentance; no, you are to preach the gospel...even glad tidings of great joy unto all people."<br /><br />Speaking as a non-member, the Church has a greater benefit than strictly triumphalism. In fact, Christianity runs into the same problem with evangelicals. Jesus commanded us above all to love our neighbor. Triumphalism tends to risk condemnation. If we show the benefits of our respective faiths (the Church for you and Christianity for me) instead of the cons of not accepting, we will get much further.<br /><br />Mark, you are absolutely correct. Most religions fall into triumphalism. What Clean Cut is saying doesn't fall into universalism, as you infer. The commandments are by no means optional. And that includes the second greatest command, "Love your neighbor as yourself." Triumphalism isn't loving your neighbor. That's why both the Church and evangelical Christianity need to move away from that and move more into a position of love. Preaching triumphalism only drives people away.Matt Davieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04098559373482617545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-81279774052712503112010-05-12T18:50:41.437-05:002010-05-12T18:50:41.437-05:00Clean Cut, I agree with your position. I just have...Clean Cut, I agree with your position. I just have a problem with your title. Christianity in general is triumphalistic: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned". (Mark 16:16)<br /><br />Of course there is some subtlety required about passages like that, but ultimately I don't think a religion that is not triumphalistic is worth taking all that seriously. The core theme of Judeo-Christianity is the eventual triumph of good over evil. How is that supposed to happen if God's divine plan and purpose for us is just one among many? If the commandments are optional? If one can lie, cheat, and steal his way to eternal salvation? etc.Mark D.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-61162269965331287602010-05-12T13:14:17.865-05:002010-05-12T13:14:17.865-05:00Matt Davies, thanks. It's good to see you aro...<strong>Matt Davies</strong>, thanks. It's good to see you around. <br /><br /><strong>Papa D</strong>--as a historian, I completely agree with you about placing it in [its historical] context. In fact ever since I read Parley P. Pratt's autobiography, I've had a liking for him. So I sincerely hope people don't take this as a personal criticism of Pratt. It's really just me taking a stand against this kind of rhetoric that can come all too easily. As you say, it's good to put it in context, but of course that certainly doesn't excuse it. So I too am glad the rhetoric has changed.<br /><br /><strong>Mark D</strong>--in arguing against triumphalism I'm not saying significant distinctions be ignored. I'm arguing against the rhetoric that gloats and tears others down in order to raise yourself up. <br /><br />Besides, apart from being patently false, it's also rude and completely unnecessary to say other religions are useless. It's completely opposite of the way I think. There is so much good and truth to be admired everywhere. <br /><br />I personally try to remember this even within my own church meetings rather than just criticizing that which I do <em>not</em> like. I try to remind myself to look for the good, even while recognizing things I don't necessary like. If I do that (and I'm not always that great at it) I just get so much more satisfaction and contentment out of life. <br /><br />By any means, contrast smug triumphalism with the humility exemplified by President Gordon B. Hinckley: <br /><br /><em>“The true gospel of Jesus Christ never led to bigotry. It never led to self-righteousness. It never led to arrogance. The true gospel of Jesus Christ leads to brotherhood, to friendship, to appreciation of others, to respect and kindness and love” (devotional, BYU alumni, 12 Sept. 2000).<br /></em>Clean Cuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08383123314458721660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-78887140550157514672010-05-11T19:27:27.575-05:002010-05-11T19:27:27.575-05:00triumphalism - "The attitude or belief that a...triumphalism - "The attitude or belief that a particular doctrine, especially a religion or political theory, is superior to all others." (American Heritage Dictionary)<br /><br />Based on that definition, a Mormon church that wasn't triumphalist wouldn't be recognizably Mormon at all. No unique priesthood authority, no special claim to revelation, no Church of Jesus Christ. Just another denomination among many others, perhaps with a few good ideas.Mark D.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-11524179372307109212010-05-11T14:52:43.578-05:002010-05-11T14:52:43.578-05:00Gotta love Brother Pratt!! lol
People forget s...Gotta love Brother Pratt!! lol <br /><br />People forget sometimes that ALL new orgainzations of ANY kind always have to gain original momentum and membership by positioning themselves against "the establishment" - the existing "competition" - the "enemy". It's sad, but it's true even outside religion. <br /><br />I'm glad such rhetoric is disappearing - and I see a HUGE difference between what was said even in my youth (multiple decades ago) and what is said now. I am grateful for that change.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-84507392377011370792010-05-10T16:16:44.961-05:002010-05-10T16:16:44.961-05:00A great thought right there. ThanksA great thought right there. ThanksMatt Davieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04098559373482617545noreply@blogger.com