tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post6642924111391113743..comments2024-01-07T12:38:39.465-06:00Comments on Clean Cut: "How in the world in the 21st century is a church asking people not to
talk openly about things?"Clean Cuthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08383123314458721660noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-30188576396671966272015-01-26T15:37:31.832-06:002015-01-26T15:37:31.832-06:00If John Dehlin has a close friend who is a current...If John Dehlin has a close friend who is a current apostle, he could get away with sexual abuse, apostacy, or anything else. They are great at protecting their friends but quick to destroy those whom they perceive to be enemies.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-36235674326765192362015-01-26T15:11:04.274-06:002015-01-26T15:11:04.274-06:00I'm unequivically in favor of giving people sp...I'm unequivically in favor of giving people space and the freedom to be honest to themselves about their faith and convictions, trusting and empowering them to follow the dictates of their own conscience. <br /><br />Is there a double standard to the saying "do what is right let the consequence follow" if one trusts their own moral compass about what is "right" more than LDS leaders/authority?<br /><br />In the interest of full disclosure, I met John Dehlin in person and found him to be a very good man. I was impressed and the whole conference left a lasting impression of goodness on me. It was a genuine Zion experience, which I wrote about here:<br /><br />http://latterdayspence.blogspot.com/2012/01/genuine-mormon-relationships.html<br /><br />But instead of making this specifically about John, maybe we can steer the dialogue towards the questions in the OP. <br /><br />Brad K (from BCC) also raised some good questions that get to the heart of what I'm most interested in here:<br /><br />"Should a modern church be excommunicating people for heresy at all? How much of a religion can one disavow with a reasonable expectation of retaining good standing in said religion? How much criticism of the church is too much to remain in communion?"Clean Cuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08383123314458721660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-11054419502722545142015-01-26T14:52:48.316-06:002015-01-26T14:52:48.316-06:00Gina Colvin really summed it up well in her post &...Gina Colvin really summed it up well in her post "How loving the church can get you hated by the church":<br /><br />http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kiwimormon/2015/01/loving-the-church-can-get-you-hated-by-the-church/<br /><br />"Lets be clear, in the main those who speak out about the church and sometimes criticise either the culture, the actions or the stance of the organisation largely don’t do so because they are apostate, or are anti-Mormon, anti-Christs, or are seeking to lead people astray. In the main, these are people who love the church and ache for it to be better, and standing up against the LDS behemoth can be heart-breaking. Expelling, shunning and villifying those who ache for the church to better fulfil its promise of goodness and kindness, justice and grace, community amidst diversity, inclusivity, tolerance and charity, honesty and transparency – is nothing short of Orwellian.<br /><br />"Excommunication is a crude and medieval response to heresy and dissidence. The exasperation that thousands and thousands will be feeling as a result of John Dehlin’s imminent expulsion from the church will have few, if any healthy consequences for the church. The spiritual immaturity of an organisation that is unable to respond with understanding to the discontent of its own is profoundly saddening. I eschew church discipline except for the most grotesque of human evils. Church discipline as a consequence of activism, questioning, and critique is futile because it will only lead to an explosion of dissatisfaction and yet another wave of our friends and family choosing to leave.<br /><br />"I could not have designed a more successful bad publicity campaign for the church myself. A witch hunt that tracks down and silences popular LDS voices who speak up for a better religious experience runs counter to all natural human feeling and in the long run (as has been the case time after time after time) the LDS institution will find themselves on the bad side of history. They will not find themselves heroes, the church won’t be better for having lost those who can think critically, the faith will not be elevated by John’s expulsion or April’s censuring. Rather we will all find ourselves with years and years – even decades of bad public, and agonised internal feeling to manage.<br /><br />"A word to LDS Inc. You don’t have enough public credibility or moral authority to win in the competition for hearts and minds writ large. Yes, you might have the silence and the support of the conforming majority within the church who believe the organisation needs no alteration. But if your calculations are made by measuring the feelings of the internal majority your formula is off. In the case of John Dehlin over 160 media organisations have taken John’s story off the wire in the last few days- some of them major news services – and the church comes off in this affair to millions and millions of people (all potential converts) as little other than petty, fearful, and insecure.<br /><br />"Is this really how Zion is to be established?"<br /><br /><br /><br />I think you and I simply prefer different answers to that question.Clean Cuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08383123314458721660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-51059064290915768502015-01-26T14:50:43.453-06:002015-01-26T14:50:43.453-06:00Anonymous, John acknowledged that they're well...Anonymous, John acknowledged that they're well within their "right" to do it. I just wish they wouldn't. <br /><br />I once wrote a post about how I wish we'd apply the "Let them worship how, where, or what they may" clause of our Articles of Faith to our own people as well as those outside the faith.<br /><br />http://latterdayspence.blogspot.com/2011/01/let-them-worship-how-where-or-what-they.html<br /><br />Obviously there will be boundaries, and I don't get to set those boundaries, but I think people who love Mormonism and define their Mormonism on their own terms shouldn't be pushed out for living according to the dictates of their own conscience when on the whole it's helpful to people rather than harmful to them. Naturally, if someone has a fragile testimony then they'll feel harmed. But my testimony is like a jackhammer wanting to dig down and find bedrock truth. I don't really care if I have to shed some of the superficial cultural ideas.<br /><br />So all in all this just feels so pharisaical to me. <br /><br />Clean Cuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08383123314458721660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-38583811717339878712015-01-26T14:28:54.876-06:002015-01-26T14:28:54.876-06:00There are significant differences between the case...There are significant differences between the cases you cite and Dehlin. Dehlin is openly critical of church leaders on multiple issues, and has PUBLICLY stated that he does not believe in the historicity of the Book of Mormon or any of the faith claims of the LDS Church. McMurrin did not encourage other Latter-day Saints to leave the Church. Dehlin has also misled the media in regards to what the council is actually about. <br /><br />Dehlin is not LDS by any rational definition and if he had any integrity at all would not portray himself as a Latter-day Saint. There is nothing in Dehlin's philosophy or teachings which are uniquely Latter-day Saint. <br /><br />The LDS Church does have an interest in who claims membership in their organization and the type of theological and philosophical claims they are making as a member. They have an obligation towards all members to correct and teach. If the alleged member is making claims which are completely in conflict with the organization's aims, and that member has refused to receive and heed the counsel of the Church, the organization has the right to disavow or remove the membership of that individual. <br /><br />It is ridiculous to argue that the removal of Dehlin's name from the membership records of the LDS Church will cause him any harm whatsoever, because Dehlin has stated repeatedly that he does not believe in ANY of the faith claims of sacral or priesthood authority being held by LDS leadership.<br /><br />I speculate that the only reasons that Dehlin continues to communicate with his Stake President is either to continue his notoriety or a zeal to challenge the LDS Church. In either case, the LDS Church has no obligation to sustain him in his efforts. <br /><br /> <br /><br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-71652811693065489312015-01-26T12:08:31.815-06:002015-01-26T12:08:31.815-06:00One great record of aborting plans to excommunicat...One great record of aborting plans to excommunicate a heretic deserves praise here, and perhaps should serve as an example to ecclesiastical leaders in the 21st century.<br /><br />This story is recorded on pages 55-56 in “David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism.” Joseph Fielding Smith and Harold B. Lee were moving to excommunicate Sterling McMurrin for his unorthodox beliefs. When President McKay heard about it, he phoned McMurrin and asked for a private meeting. In that meeting, McKay was never critical nor disapproving. He told McMurrin: “They cannot do this to you! They cannot put you on trial!” and that if they did, he (the President of the Church) would be McMurrin’s “first witness”.<br /><br />McMurrin said: “I should have been censured for being such a heretic, and here President McKay wasn’t even interested in raising a single question about my beliefs, but simply insisted that a man in this Church had a right to believe as he pleased. And he stressed that in several ways… It was really a quite remarkable experience, to have the President of the Church talking in such genuinely liberal terms.”<br /><br />I love that story. It makes me really love and respect President McKay. Would that we could have more members like him today. And honestly, I don't see why John Dehlin should be treated any differently than Sterling McMurrin. McMurrin was especially critical (and publicly) of the Church's civil rights record. And privately, he didn't believe the Book of Mormon was a historical record and even disbelieved in the divinity of Christ.<br /><br />Author Greg Prince later elaborated on that McKay/McMurrin experience on a Mormon Stories podcast. He said that during that same visit with Sterling McMurrin, President McKay asked a series of rhetorical questions such as “What is it that a man must believe to be a member of the church? Or what is it that a man is not allowed to believe to stay a member of the Church?” <br /><br />He didn’t answer either question, but they’re good rhetorical questions. This was in 1954 when McMurrin told McKay that it looked like they were going to try to throw him out of the Church. McKay said that if they do “I will be the first witness in your defense”, and when word of this got out the excommunication charges were dropped. That’s some serious compassion from the President of the Church. And apparently he was as tolerant of those on the far conservative side as he was of those, like McMurrin, on the liberal side. Very cool example of pitching a big tent and welcoming everyone in.Clean Cuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08383123314458721660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-46026750763477159812015-01-26T12:01:47.842-06:002015-01-26T12:01:47.842-06:00I appreciate all the comments, folks. I can see bo...I appreciate all the comments, folks. I can see both arguments. I also understand the limitations of comparing a church with a corporation. A church is a faith community. But in reality, the Church ™ behaves exactly like a corporation. Sometimes keeping the bureaucracy humming can get in the way of doing what's best individuals.<br /><br />The bottom line, to me at least, is that Christ never formed a bureacracy Church ™. His was a church/community that ministered to the needs of individuals--especially those most marginalized in society. It's true that he could get angry at times, but keep in mind that he only got angry when the religious establishment began to act like a bureaucracy. So yes, it's true that Jesus wasn't accepting of everyone and everything. He especially had trouble with bureaucratically-inculcated hypocrites. <br /><br />Nobody can stretch this case and say that this kind of excommunication is love, Christ-like, and inclusive. "Excommunication in a Mormon setting is the nuclear bomb of Christian excommunications in that it cancels the saving power of the sacraments. When you have the beating of the Catholics in the severity of your censures, it should give you pause. Second, excommunication for heresy is a rare thing in Christianity today. I do not mean to suggest that Mormonism needs to follow Catholicism in its modes of discipline, just that we should recognise the incredible significance of what is being proposed when we speak of excommunication."<br /><br />http://bycommonconsent.com/2014/06/12/on-excommunication/<br /><br />Because it's the "nuclear option", I wonder if this is a power we should even allow individual bishops to use. The President of the United States can't even launch a nuclear bomb without multiple codes/authorizations. Depending on the character of the individual stake presidencies and high councils, the decision to use the nuclear option of excommunication is still very subjective, and it worries me. The LDS Church doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to excommunications. (Remember, Helmuth Hübener was excommunicated for risking his life and opposing the Nazi's.)Clean Cuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08383123314458721660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-70968442514088921582015-01-25T23:05:22.216-06:002015-01-25T23:05:22.216-06:00This point seems apt to me.
“Analogies between th...This point seems apt to me.<br /><br />“Analogies between the church and institutions such as the secular state and the independent university are helpful only to a limited extent, because the church, while it has the features of a human society, is very different in its purpose, origins, and means. Neither the state nor the independent university, at least as conceived in our American tradition, is committed to any substantive set of beliefs about the ultimate nature of reality. The state is a community of people willing to live together under the same laws, even though they may vehemently disagree in their philosophies and theologies. The academy is a community of scholars committed to adhere to certain methods of investigation and communication without necessarily sharing any common convictions about the way things are. The church, however, is by nature a society of faith and witness. It exists only to the extent that it continues to adhere to a specific vision of the world—one centered on Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Unlike any secular organization, the church has a deposit of faith that must be maintained intact and transmitted to new members. Thus the church cannot accommodate the same kind of ideological pluralism that is acceptable in the secular state or university.”- Avery Dulles, Catholic theologianJack of Heartsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-26377472080701271432015-01-25T21:13:00.528-06:002015-01-25T21:13:00.528-06:00Michael, I have in the last few years become an ou...Michael, I have in the last few years become an outspoken LGBT ally. My heart aches because of the fact that this church is such an unsafe place right now for LGBT Saints. We need so much more support, compassion, and a desire to spread better understanding of the sexuality spectrum. There is still way too much ignorance in this church and I look forward to the day when committed and faithful gay couples are welcome to actively participate in our wards and stakes.<br /><br />I'll throw out a couple things I wrote:<br /><br />On showing compassion and ceasing judgement:<br /><br />http://rationalfaiths.com/putting-stones/<br /><br />On marriage equality:<br />http://latterdayspence.blogspot.com/2014/04/do-not-go-where-path-may-lead-go.html<br /><br />Dieter F. Uchtdorf's quote here has a lot of applications, including our assumptions about biblical teachings or God's feelings about homosexuality:<br /><br />"As good as our previous experience may be, if we stop asking questions, stop thinking, stop pondering, we can thwart the revelations of the Spirit. Remember, it was the questions young Joseph asked that opened the door for the restoration of all things. We can block the growth and knowledge our Heavenly Father intends for us. How often has the Holy Spirit tried to tell us something we needed to know but couldn’t get past the massive iron gate of what we thought we already knew?"<br /><br />Regardless of what people believe about homosexuality, I think we can all agree that family is important, and especially at risk here are LDS youth who are struggling to reconcile what they feel about their own sexual orientation and what they hear loud and clear from the Church. The Family Acceptance Project has put together a best practices manual for LDS families with LGBT children. It's free and definitely worth downloading. Wish the Church would adopt it as a manual:<br /><br />http://familyproject.sfsu.edu/LDS-bookletClean Cuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08383123314458721660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-18942962777233763202015-01-25T21:09:32.467-06:002015-01-25T21:09:32.467-06:00I've definitely come to appreciate vulnerabili...I've definitely come to appreciate vulnerability. The world would be a better place if we could be more vulnerable with each other.<br /><br />As for my wife, she's amazing. She's the most sympathetic, wise, and compassionate human being I know. Certainly by virtue of being married to me she's been on a journey of her own and has had her eyes opened quite a bit. She doesn't get seasick like I do on the church boat, and she's a lot more tactful and diplomatic than I am and therefore makes a big difference in everyone's life no matter who she comes in contact with. <br /><br />She hasn't updated her blog as much since Facebook has kind of become more of that forum. However she has gotten the bug lately to be writing more (she has a gift) and is thinking of starting a new blog.<br /><br />Now and then she worries that I express too much negativity, but I suppose that's to be expected when she's much more of an optimist than I am.Clean Cuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08383123314458721660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-89899451728956625562015-01-25T20:57:22.325-06:002015-01-25T20:57:22.325-06:00Thank you-totally agree.Thank you-totally agree.Clean Cuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08383123314458721660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-28711614357173094552015-01-25T14:56:54.388-06:002015-01-25T14:56:54.388-06:00Another thoughtful perspective from Jacob B:
http...Another thoughtful perspective from Jacob B:<br /><br />https://lettersfromthevineyard.wordpress.com/2015/01/25/excommunication-for-apostasy-in-the-present-age-an-argument-for-its-dissolution/<br /><br />"Instead of severing him in all possible ways from the fold, why not rather insist that he should remain, not just because people “like” him can be included and accepted in a broad definition of fellowship, but because it is crucial that we speak about what makes his views so attractive to so many people, why the tradition itself is suffering, and that we can only really work through this as a family, because within a family certain familial obligations hold us together when mutual affection cannot. Hold his feet up to the fire, make him articulate his position more clearly, persuasively, and create spaces for others to do the same. If there is something shallow or repugnant about his views, do the hard work of exposing them as such and continue on in works of love, the fruits of which are the only truly valuable returns for fully living one’s religion. Be confident that the body of Christ is broad enough and deep enough to allow space for such hard work to take place. Excommunication for apostasy is the ultimate ad hominem–we sever the person, but the person’s ideas continue to travel and expand, virtually untouched, and probably given even more momentum if the person is reborn as a martyr.<br /><br />"In the present age, an age where every nook and cranny is exposed and ideas seep through the cracks like water, excommunication for apostasy is a practice whose time has expired, if nothing else than because of its ineffectiveness. We lost an opportunity to do this work of love with Kate Kelly. We lost the opportunity to speak together, argue together, weep together, listen together. Instead, only pain and polarization were the results, and her work did anything but fade away and die. What if, instead of trying to remove them from our sight, (which with the aforementioned access to modern communication technology is truly not possible) we insist that there is no place they can hide, because this house is too expansive, there is too much light, and where they go we will follow? Here is my heart, there is yours. We will argue and sometimes scream at one another, but at the end of the day we sleep in the same house, and the issues that cause you to seem wholly different from me will continue to be present no matter where we exile you to. <br /><br />"Excommunication for apostasy, in this sense, is the deceptively easy way out. It is a temporary reprieve, a distraction from what is truly at stake. For the Church, it provides the false security of assuming the problem is removed, the Church is safe, the “innocent” are not longer in danger. For the excommunicant, it removes the incentive to continue to do the hard work of working within the family, of having to listen to others who disagree, of having to revise and negotiate and compromise and tolerate, because that’s what you do in a family. Instead, both entities can now feel free to dig in, put up walls, retreat to pure partisanship. And the work of love, already enormously difficult in the family context, no longer is front and center, but a demolished hope of the past."Clean Cuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08383123314458721660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-89108850479605961652015-01-25T10:38:19.470-06:002015-01-25T10:38:19.470-06:00My friend, Marc B, has summarized my thoughts here...My friend, Marc B, has summarized my thoughts here:<br /><br />Based on what is publicly known about the situation (which is a lot considering Dehlin released several of the letters from his Stake President), I'm troubled by the developments. While I disagree with Dehlin on a lot, I'm in favor of "big tent" Mormonism and think excommunication should be very rare, particularly for something like "apostasy." Where someone is teaching ideas that diverge from Church orthodoxy, I think it would be better to confront the ideas than try and silence the speaker. I can't see how Dehlin's excommunication here will serve to help him or his family or protect the Church.Clean Cuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08383123314458721660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-32232852811011956892015-01-25T07:21:01.071-06:002015-01-25T07:21:01.071-06:00Did you watch the full "Trib talk" inter...Did you watch the full "Trib talk" interview?<br /><br />It's dishonest to say he has made it his "mission to assist as many people to leave the church as he can."<br /><br />Each individual is their own moral agent here, and if they choose for themselves to stay in the church he supports them. If people choose for themselves to leave he will support them. He's about helping people make the best and healthiest decision for themselves--and that decision may be different than you or me.<br /><br />When people turn to Mormon Stories in moments of crisis of faith, the podcast sometimes helps them find their way to a new kind of faith. It promotes understanding and showing love and respect for all people wherever they may be on the belief spectrum. And because I believe in Big Tent Mormonism I believe the Church is strong enough to let people talk freely and openly.Clean Cuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08383123314458721660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-65065274485919229632015-01-25T00:15:59.049-06:002015-01-25T00:15:59.049-06:00The better analogy is not a corporation but a poli...The better analogy is not a corporation but a political action organization like the ACLU. How long do you think the ACLU would allow one of its members to openly teach that she is committed to assist as many people as possible to leave ACLU membership and does not believe the basic values that the ACLU seeks to engender in communities? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-79891808618123763332015-01-25T00:12:16.125-06:002015-01-25T00:12:16.125-06:00Clean Cut: I am surprised to see you taken in my D...Clean Cut: I am surprised to see you taken in my Dehlin. Really, when a person makes it his or her mission to assist as many people to leave the church as he can and states very clearly that he does not believe in its basic tenants and openly teaches against what the church teaches, what do you think should happen? No church ought to put up with such betrayal and open opposition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-86103090709143805592015-01-24T19:23:12.056-06:002015-01-24T19:23:12.056-06:00For the record, it's just as easy to make up a...For the record, it's just as easy to make up a pseudonym as it is to post as "anonymous". It would also make it a lot easier to follow the conversation to respond to specific comments.<br /><br />All I can think to say is that I'm sad that people are willing to smear a good man in order to prop up the image of the institutional Church. Love will always be greater than fear. John understands that. Many in the church still fear more than love. This witch hunt is evidence of that.Clean Cuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08383123314458721660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-8904209627230653882015-01-24T18:16:41.876-06:002015-01-24T18:16:41.876-06:00Or maybe it speaks to the fact that Blogger blogs ...Or maybe it speaks to the fact that Blogger blogs are quicker to post to anonymously.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-58238698843332214522015-01-24T16:34:53.469-06:002015-01-24T16:34:53.469-06:00The number of "Anonymous" commenters on ...The number of "Anonymous" commenters on this thread 12/17 - (and nearly all of us, if you note there are no last names and only one "Jettboy" that links to his blog) speaks volumes to the OP's point. There's a real fear of church discipline if speaking one's mind does not align with current church policy. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-33111619001348575642015-01-24T12:17:18.225-06:002015-01-24T12:17:18.225-06:00The point remains that John would rather speak his...The point remains that John would rather speak his mind, than have it closed, and from his perspective professionally it leads to mental illness and depression. The Prophet Joseph D&C 134: 4, 10 explicitly states that "we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciences of men." He has his God given rights of expression, V: 10: "religious societies have a right to deal with their members …they can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship." <br />Brother Dehlin has made a choice: "I would much rather be disciplined than violate my conscience."<br />The action taken by his local authorities to hold a disciplinary court rather it be excommunication or disfellowship; will not silence Brother Dehlin. This is his God given right. It seems to me that the church feels it will diminish Bro. Dehlins influence by excommunicating him, and will discredit him as an authority in the eyes of members. It will not be so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-71008652373827202392015-01-24T11:37:27.578-06:002015-01-24T11:37:27.578-06:00That this is coming from John Dehlin, who pulled e...That this is coming from John Dehlin, who pulled every string he could to get Gregory Smith "not to talk openly about things", is hilarious.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-67951369031736286672015-01-24T10:39:58.874-06:002015-01-24T10:39:58.874-06:00Would you advise your clients to publicly blog abo...Would you advise your clients to publicly blog about their marital and family problems? After all according to you they need to let it all hang out in order to avoid mental illness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-17970936700640818862015-01-24T10:18:34.602-06:002015-01-24T10:18:34.602-06:00CEO: Granted your point, annual shareholder meetin...CEO: Granted your point, annual shareholder meetings are open to those with voting class stock. However if you carefully parse the development of the corporate analogy sub-thread, the counterpoint to senior management being held accountable to the little guys is that little guys do not commonly own voting class stock. In fact, those that do hold voting class stock are often, again, large shareholders and senior management -- which again -- are often the same individuals, whom I would compare to General Authorities. The little guy, or common church member, with stock in his 401.k will rarely own voting class stock (i.e. priesthood keys) in any corporation of respectable size that has already made its IPO and been publicly traded for years, so the applicability of my original corporate analogy seems to stand unrefuted. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-88976213193226337242015-01-24T09:56:15.206-06:002015-01-24T09:56:15.206-06:00This post is very accurate and truthful. Now you h...This post is very accurate and truthful. Now you have an idea of how it feels to be a gay man in the closet.Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3920640965536781054.post-61664295310951729192015-01-23T23:22:15.518-06:002015-01-23T23:22:15.518-06:00Annual shareholder meeting is open to all who own ...Annual shareholder meeting is open to all who own voting class stock, smarty!CEOnoreply@blogger.com